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+--- Thread: Sourdough (/showthread.php?tid=283)
Sourdough - Mikey - 28-06-2020
Ok, so I'm having a mare, I've been attempting to make sourdough for about 6 weeks now, and on every occasion something goes wrong.
I've made it too dry, too tight, too heavy, too wet to manage, forgotten salt, broken the surface tension, not left it rise enough, forgotten to fold to create gluten structure and it's starting to drive me a bit dippy. I've watched just about every video possible, and read a lot of books including PH's Bread. I keep doing something wrong, often its something really small, today, I broke the surface tension on one ball because I forgot to flip the ball oven on the bench and ended up folding the base onto the top instead of the other way around.
My two boule's are sat waiting for me to bake, they should be ready to go in the oven around 12. I'm not sure who else makes sourdough here but, this is, without doubt, the hardest learning curve of my life, there are so many permutations that could go wrong, and you can't follow a recipe as the weather and temperature makes the process different for every bake.
I have my own starter, which is like looking after a baby, the OH thinks it's time for me to give up but, when you taste commercial sourdough you realise that the real thing even with the above mistakes is far superior to anything you can buy from a supermarket.
I'm not really sure what I'm after, I'm probably just venting as this is driving me up the wall. I think it's made all the worse because unlike making a standard loaf which I can do with ease, the process is an investment of 2-3 days work, and for it to fail in the final step before baking, is really frustrating.
Yes I know I'm very critical of myself, I want one of those sourdoughs which are high round balls, with, a perfect dark brown hard crust, with a beautifully pocket holed centre. Everything else is second best, oh to get there just once....
RE: Sourdough - doublyjonah - 28-06-2020
(28-06-2020, 08:54 AM)Mikey Wrote: Ok, so I'm having a mare, I've been attempting to make sourdough for about 6 weeks now, and on every occasion something does wrong.
I've made it too dry, too tight, too heavy, too wet to manage, forgotten salt, broken the surface tension, not left it rise enough, forgotten to fold to create gluten structure and it's starting to drive me a bit dippy. I've watched just about every video possible, and read a lot of books including PH's Bread. I keep doing something wrong, often its something really small, today, I broke the surface tension on one ball because I forgot to flip the ball oven on the bench and ended up folding the base onto the top instead of the other way around.
My two boule's are sat waiting for me to bake, they should be ready to go in the oven around 12. I'm not sure who else makes sourdough here but, this is, without doubt, the hardest learning curve of my life, there are so many permutations that could go wrong, and you can't follow a recipe as the weather and temperature makes the process different for every bake.
I have my own starter, which is like looking after a baby, the OH thinks it's time for me to give up but, when you taste commercial sourdough you realise that the real thing even with the above mistakes is far superior to anything you can buy from a supermarket.
I'm not really sure what I'm after, I'm probably just venting as this is driving me up the wall. I think it's made all the worse because unlike making a standard loaf which I can do with ease, the process is an investment of 2-3 days work, and for it to fail in the final step before baking, is really frustrating.
Yes I know I'm very critical of myself, I want one of those sourdoughs which are high round balls, with, a perfect dark brown hard crust, with a beautifully pocket holed centre. Everything else is second best, oh to get there just once....
We are decidedly imperfect but enthusiastic sourdough bakers. And even though my boule never stands up to being transferred to the oven without deflating a bit and even though the bread is rather too short to make a decent sandwich with, I strongly agree that it just tastes too nice to give up.
Forgetting the salt is the worst! For the folds/stretches, I set timers on my phone as soon as I transfer the dough out of the mixing bowl. I had a hard time accepting that wetter is better even though it can be hard to handle. My other main sourdough sin was not baking long enough or cutting into it burning hot from the oven, not allowing it to dry out enough. We also discovered that we had to compromise a little on the oven spring we got in the hotter fan oven to get a nicer, more blistered crust in the normal oven as it didn't whip away our steam so quickly. So what I'm saying is, I am a pro at all the problems you listed and more
My favorite recipe is the Norwich Sourdough on the Wild Yeast blog (if I'm allowed to give info for another site). The site is no longer updated, but it does have some decent videos and instructions still.
We're enjoying yesterday's bake today and I'm already jealous of your fresh bread! Enjoy
RE: Sourdough - Bren - 28-06-2020
Mikey I've been baking sourdough loaves for 9 -ish years and sometimes I get failures not sure how or why it happens like you say the leaf still tastes fine but the texture is off.
This is what usually works for me.
My starters kept in the fridge feeding it once a week (if I've not needed it) with equal weight of water to flour.
I do an overnight sponge then add the rest of the flour, salt and a bit to of oil next morning
Kneed the dough then fold it hourly around 3 times
Shape and leave in proving basket lined with grease-proof paper
Place Dutch oven in stove until temp reaches 240c
Slash loaf and carefully lift into Dutch oven holding grease proof
turn oven down to 220c Bake for 40 min lifting lid for the last 10 mins
I started to use grease-proof because dropping the dough from the proving basket to the dutch oven caused the dough to deflate so this way seemed easier.
RE: Sourdough - Mikey - 28-06-2020
It's all the little things you miss/forget, as I'm now baking on weekends being back in work. You don't get a second chance when you make a mistake. I've tried so many different methods and techniques now I end up second-guessing myself while. For example, putting things in the fridge to slow the ferment overnight, no one tells you how long to leave the dough after you take it out of the fridge before working with it.
I think I need to go on a course or stick with one version until I get it right and then vary. Unfortunately, I'm very impatient, I wanted to work with 80-90 percent hydration before I really knew how to manage the dough. D'oh. There are so many different methods for folding, I've tried the bench slap and fold, the bowl fold, I think the only method I've not followed is Paul Hollywoods!!.
Also very few recipes tell you how much starter, PH uses way too much. I've got recipes for 9-5 baking, overnight, weekend, I probably need to trust one and follow it religiously. Instead of different elements of multiple bakers.
My boules are rising beautifully, must wait 2 more hours...... patience......!
RE: Sourdough - PyreneesPlot - 28-06-2020
I'm a newish sourdough maker after several years of giving up, but not being able to get yeast focused the mind!
I take my starter out of the fridge at breakfast time the day before I want to bake.
At lunchtime I make the sponge - 100g flour, 100ml water and 65g starter and leave on the kitchen worktop.
Just before going to bed I make the dough - another 300g flour, 130ml water & salt. It gets kneaded for about 10 minutes with quite a bit more flour going in as it is sooooo wet to start with! It goes in the fridge overnight now the weather is warm.
Next morning knock back and knead for five or so mins and put into the tin to prove again, 2-3 hrs. It gets baked in the breadmaker for an hour.
Having read the comments above, I clearly need to do more folding as the structure although good, is not yet open enough.
How long is your second prove, Bren?
RE: Sourdough - doublyjonah - 28-06-2020
(28-06-2020, 09:53 AM)Bren Wrote: I started to use grease-proof because dropping the dough from the proving basket to the dutch oven caused the dough to deflate so this way seemed easier.
I've been trying all sorts to stop the deflation. We ran out of greaseproof paper, so started using a silicone mat that can be transferred with boule largely intact to the baking tray. I greased it last time which stopped the sides sticking. Did prevent deflation but also stopped some rise due to lack of traction. I gave up on turning out of a floured proving basket as it was just too much for my heart to see it get stuck or slump sadly down after turning onto the tray!
RE: Sourdough - Mikey - 28-06-2020
The open structure comes from moisture PP, keeping your hands wet while working the dough works just as well as using flour but, it doesn't add flour. Try folding in a bowl with wet hands, this is easier, though I do have a video of me slap folding a very wet dough.
RE: Sourdough - Mikey - 28-06-2020
This is my dough final proving on the boiler. I’m not sure how to add a video though? Any suggestions?
RE: Sourdough - Mikey - 28-06-2020
I'm hoping this will upload, a video I did a couple of weeks ago with a high hydration slap and fold bench technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYbBLdA7hWg
Let me know if it doesn't link. I was wetting my hands after every few fold and turns.
RE: Sourdough - Mikey - 28-06-2020
Well on the negative side the loaves stuck to the cloths, very annoying!! Obviously they weren’t damp enough. I Managed to burn three fingers opening my Pyrex casserole dish which I was using as an upside down Dutch oven. Two hours on they are now wrapped in sudacrem and cling film, and burning like nobodies business.
On the plus side the first loaf had a nice crumb, with an open structure and a glossy finish. Second loaf almost ready to go in. That’s gonna be a bit harder now though with only one hand. No pain no gain!!!